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The San Antonio African American Community Archive and Museum (SAAACAM) is dedicated to preserving and sharing San Antonio's Black history.
They are expanding their community outreach programs to include a new bus tour of the city’s Green Book sites.
SAAACAM’s education specialist, Pesha Mabrie, explained the motivations behind the tours. More information is included at the end of the interview.
This conversation has been edited for clarity and length.
MABRIE: So the Green Book was actually published and founded by Victor Green. He was a New Yorker, and he was a postal worker, actually. And so what he did was he literally made a travel guide for African Americans so they could find safe spaces while they are traveling [by] car.
Back in the '30s, that's when a time where used cars [were] a thing, and so African Americans were able to purchase these new cars, and that was also a freedom for them to be able to travel. Because they used to travel by train, and even with trains, there was a lot of discrimination and harassment. So you had a safe space in your car. However, even traveling in your car, there's certain towns, there's certain restaurants, there's certain gas stations that will not serve African Americans.
And so what he did was he developed a travel guide that went from city to city, state to state, and even internationally, for African Americans to strategically plan how to travel. So it was really a very different way of travel that Black folks had to go through. But he was just very innovative of finding these spaces for them to be able to eat, for them to stay as well as a boost for African American entrepreneurship. So this was a way for folks to be able to advertise what they had to offer for people.
MARTINEZ: Well, I'm curious as to how he was able to accumulate all that information. Was it crowd sourced? Was it word of mouth? How did Green collect all that information?
MABRIE: It was a little bit of both. So the first Green Book, which was in 1936, it was really very much a regional Green Book. But then when you look at the different publications, you will see that there were different collaborators with him in different regions. And so at one point, there were businesses that actually pay for advertisement. And so it was like one of those things is that if you knew that you wanted to offer something, you will place an ad in the Green Book or you will write in to put your name in the Green Book.
There was also a form that I saw in one of the editions where someone could recommend a place that they went to and they felt comfortable, or they felt welcomed. And so he will add it there.
So, he did it for about 20 years. So thinking about all of the things that he was able to accumulate, I think it's kind of interesting how he did that.
MARTINEZ: And so were these areas that were in the Green Book primarily in the South or were there also some areas up in the North where … we do know there was discrimination and segregation in the North, but the South, obviously was more predominant. But I'm guessing that these areas might have exclusively been in the South.
MABRIE: Well, actually, no, a lot of people, there's a misconception when it comes to discrimination, like you said. Particularly sundown towns. Majority of sundown towns were up in the north.
MARTINEZ: Can you explain what those are?
MABRIE: Right. So sundown towns were basically this kind of spoken rule that if you're African American, and if you're there after the sun goes down, then there's a potential that you will be harmed. And so there's this expectation that you better leave. Indiana [and] Illinois were really notorious for [being] sundown towns.
So one thing that you will see in his Green Book is that he had different states, as well as by state by city. And you will see that in some cities there were a lot of places, and then there's some towns that may have one or two places.
A lot of times, what you will find is you will find residents that offered refuge for African American travelers, and they call it “tourist homes.” So you might not find a restaurant, but you might find a tourist home, kind of like an Airbnb where you you're able to rent a room, they'll feed you, they'll fellowship with you, and then you're able to go on your journey the next morning.
MARTINEZ: So let's talk about these Green Book areas and how they apply to San Antonio. San Antonio's East Side is primarily known as really a hub for African American culture here in the region. First of all, give us a little bit of a breakdown on why the East Side is considered a sort of a hub of that culture, and how some of its places to stay, some of its restaurants were in that Green Book.
MABRIE: So the interesting thing, and just like anything else when it comes to building cities, there's something that's geographical that will separate folks. For us, it was the San Antonio River. And so if you were on the east side or the east bank of the river, that's where, typically, Black folks were placed.
The interesting thing, and what was really fascinating is, when I started the research, I found over 80 Green Book sites. That was mind blowing to me. I moved here…
MARTINEZ: That's a lot.
MABRIE: It's a lot, right? I moved here in '89 and so my family lived on the East Side, and I remember the old buildings, but I didn't know what those old buildings were, or the history of those old buildings. They were just old buildings, right? So now doing the research and seeing that there were over 80. And actually, there were other travel guides that were around, besides Victor Green’s, and so I continuously find more. So I have a feeling that there were more than 100 sites in the East Side area that advertised for Negro motorist travelers.
But what was interesting about it was [that] we had a little bit of everything. We had restaurants, we had nightclubs, we had hotels, beauty salons — a lot of beauty salons — tailors — everything that you could think of. We had it. We had lawyers that advertised, civil rights leaders that advertised in the Green Book.
But what was beautiful is not just understanding the places and what they offer, but also how everyone's interconnected and how they built a community. And so I realized that a lot of people were really close friends, or they were involved in other things besides being entrepreneurs.
And so digging out that story was just very compelling, but also I was very heartbroken to know that [the] majority of these sites are demolished. And so the question is why. Is it that we did not preserve them like we should have, because we didn't know what they were? Is it because we believed in certain political policies that things were going to be revitalized? There's just a lot of questions that come to mind.
But one of my favorite Green Book sites that I would say a couple of them, but one of them is MJ Brewer's home. She was a tourist home, and she offered refuge for Negro motorists. She was actually a member of Second Baptist Church, and she would offer Bible study at her home and all these things.
But what was interesting about it is that her home, in that time where she bought it, was only $4,000 and it's on the market now for $355,000. Out of my price range! It’s on East Houston Street, and I was just like, why?
But it also tells the test of time of gentrification. It talks about inflation, but this beautiful home that gave refuge to so many people in her story and her legacy, to open her home up, that's one of my favorite stories.
MARTINEZ: And I think that's the case for so many historic neighborhoods, not just here in San Antonio, but in other major cities, where you will see the centers of culture demolished for the sake of development or other reasons. But again, it's not an unusual story for people who sort of keep up with this kind of thing.
MABRIE: Correct, and I think that's one interesting thing that I'm learning, especially when we are training docents.
Right now, we're doing an eight-week training course with docents so that they could be the tour guides for our Green Book bus tour. And what's interesting about them is that they say the same thing, especially the out-of-towners, “my city experienced that,” or “I remember my mother telling me these things, or my father telling me these things,” or, “yes, we're dealing with gentrification as well,” or “I'm curious about to see what kind of Green Book sites are in my city.”
So it's having that kind of conversation, but just also knowing to celebrate the legacies. I have so many questions, and I wish that we were able to capture their oral histories. But it's just fun digging for the information.
MARTINEZ: Well, let's talk about these bus tours. You have them every month. Can you give us a little bit of insight as to what people will see when they go on those bus tours?
MABRIE: Definitely. So what we'll be doing is we'll actually be spending about two and a half hours together, and we'll be going to different sites. Some sites are still intact, so you'll be able to see the houses or the buildings, but some sites are not intact.
But the purpose is for us to celebrate these legacies and to also understand the East Side community. Also talk about black travel and what that looks like past and present, and also just give folks the opportunity to be able to have some dialog or discuss or even have them reminisce.
This is not going to be a typical tour where I'm pointing things out to you and say, “well, this building was built in 1920.” No. I want us to have dialogue. I want us to have conversation. I want the elder to tell us his story about living on the East Side or living in Cleveland or whatever, and us really taking that in. It's a process of celebration as well as a process of healing.
I am a lifelong learner, and so I want to learn from the community. That is the purpose of us — to collect, preserve and share. And so that's the same process with the with the bus tour.
So I'm excited to have folks and tell me that they went to Miss Hicks beauty salon, or I'm excited for folks to tell me that they remember the Bellinger taxi company, or they know Hattie Briscoe because she was their divorce lawyer. I want to hear all the things that come from people.
We will have one on Monday. That's going to be our first one, and tickets are still on sale. We'll have one on Juneteenth, the actual Juneteenth date, but then after that, they'll be the second Saturday of each month. We will be offering the bus tours.
I will say this: I am a data analyst. And so it took me forever to narrow it down to 29 sites, because I would love to give you all 100 sites. With that said, there might be some add-ons eventually, but I'm trying not to add any more. I think my partner-in-crime, I think she will also appreciate me not adding any more right now (laughs).
SAAACAM’S Green Book Civil Rights Tour starts Memorial Day Monday, May 26, at 11 a.m.
Stops include the downtown theater district, the Dignowity Hills and Denver Heights neighborhoods, St. Paul Square, and SAAACAM’s exhibit space.
Participants will meet in the Brackenridge Park parking garage at 3501 Avenue B.
Tour tickets are $40 for SAAACAM members and $45 for non-members. Parking is free.
SAAACAM will offer the Green Book Civil Rights Bus Tour every second Saturday of each month.
Register here.
