SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
American universities have long been celebrated for being hubs of research and innovation. And that reputation helps attract top students from around the world who come to the U.S. to pursue degrees and who often stay for careers in science and engineering. But the former president of MIT says that reputation is being threatened by President Trump's actions. L. Rafael Reif is an engineer who led the Massachusetts Institute of Technology from 2012 to 2022, and he recently wrote an article about this for Foreign Affairs titled "America's Coming Brain Drain: Trump's War On Universities Could Kill U.S. Innovation." Welcome to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
L RAFAEL REIF: Oh, thank you very much, Scott. Thank you for having me.
DETROW: Before we talk about the current moment, I'd actually like to talk about your background and your backstory because you're somebody this applies to, right? You came to the U.S. from Venezuela for graduate studies.
REIF: That's correct.
DETROW: What drew you to the U.S.?
REIF: Well, what drew me here is the idea of being - studying and then working with the best talented people in the world and in the best places, where the most advanced research was going on. I just was attracted to be among the best, to move the needle of scientific discovery.
DETROW: Yeah. I mean, there are top universities around the world, but it feels like every October, when the Nobel Prize is announced, so many awards are given to people tied to American institutions and often people, like you said, who were born in other countries. In your article, you talk about mRNA vaccines, 3D printing, AI, all of these big innovations. What is it specifically about the U.S. higher education system that allows it to stand out in this way?
REIF: Well, it's an excellent question, and it's an important point to ponder right now with the actions that are taken by the U.S. administration. No. 1 is the fact that we have the best research ecosystem in the world. It is fueled by public funds. And it includes not just, of course, the university system but academic medical centers. This is where the best and the most advanced research happens. So people get attracted. If they want to do wonderful things and amazing things, they're attracted to where the most wonderful things happen. That's one thing.
The other thing is that we have a very creative and heterogeneous population from - you know, having the most talented, at least, disciplined, talented, motivated students worldwide that come to America. And the third point, of course, is that we have a terrific innovative ecosystem. That's fueled by the private sector. Those three are the key elements to me that makes America the best place to do all the great things that have happened in the last, at least, 80 years.
DETROW: Yeah. We've seen a few different fronts from the Trump administration. You have seen large federal grants frozen or pulled from big institutions. You have seen a crackdown on student visas. You've seen targeting of students in the country on visas. What, to you, is the most concerning? What, to you, has the most potential long-term damage to the higher education system?
REIF: Well, all of the above, all of the above. Let's just take one at a time. If we don't have federal public funds - I mean, public funds supporting research universities - if we don't have that, none of the innovations are going to happen. You mentioned earlier that some of the things that I said in the article - mRNA and quantum computing and all those terrific innovations that we have in this country. That is the result of public funding of research and academia. If we don't have that, we are pretty much done. I mean, where are the innovations of 25 years from now, and where are they going to come from?
DETROW: Can I push back, though? Because so many of these institutions - especially the ones that are doing the most innovative research - have massive, massive endowments, have incredibly high tuition. Do they need the federal funding, given the resources these institutions have?
REIF: Absolutely. Look, I think - let's pick that point up and then we come back. The yearly public investment in academic research is about $60 billion annually. That's the total. The annual total spending from the endowment - of all the endowments, of all the universities in the United States, all of them - is about $30 billion. And half of that money goes to financial aid. A quarter of that money goes to support academic programs and even research itself, and the rest to cover different university operations. So even if we just don't spend a penny on financial aid or anything else, even if you don't do that, we only would cover even at most half of what the public funding is doing today.
DETROW: Can I ask you, though, this all didn't come in a vacuum. For years, there have been criticisms from many Republicans, from many conservatives, not just President Trump, about higher education, about free speech concerns, about the cost of it, about political agendas from leaders of higher education institutions. You have seen this. You led a major institution for a decade. Is there a point to some of the calls for reform? Do you think higher education needs to change in one way or another? And how can it make those changes in this environment?
REIF: Well, one thing is true. I think the tendency in American university is to be more liberal in thinking. It's true. It's a fact. It's there. I don't know that we need to do anything to change that. I mean, people come and think and say whatever they want to say, though I don't think there is an issue of concern there, basically. But, of course, conservatives would like that to change.
What I do think is a problem that got things a little in the wrong direction is that all of a sudden, people with one point of view don't want to hear those of the other point of view, or they cancel them, or they boycott them. And that is wrong. And that has happened in quite a few institutions. And I think that has to change, and American institutions and administrations have to figure that out. That's a point that the conservatives in Congress and the government have made, and that's accurate. That's correct. But to address that by shooting ourself in our foot is completely crazy.
DETROW: Let me ask you this. If you were giving advice to a promising engineering student in his or her early 20s from Venezuela right now, would you tell him to come to the U.S.?
REIF: Ah. I would like to think that what we're seeing today, which is in a very early time of the U.S. administration, if enough people like me, who know what we're talking about, explain it as clearly as we can to those policymakers, they will stop doing what they are doing. And I'm hoping that that will happen, and I'm thanking you for paying attention to this and having people like me on your show. But if things continue this way three years from now and the whole system has been dismantled, how could I recommend someone to come here?
DETROW: That is L. Rafael Reif, president emeritus and former professor of electrical engineering and computer science at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Thank you so much for talking to us.
REIF: Well, thank you for having me. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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