MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
Jacinda Ardern tells a story about being locked in a political campaign seven weeks to go before elections, and she's about to do a TV news interview. Ardern had just taken over as leader of the Labour Party in New Zealand. If they won, she would become prime minister. And as she waited for her live hit, she listened as the male sports anchor opined that she and all women seeking new jobs should be open about their reproductive plans.
JACINDA ARDERN: That was the bit that got me, and I think that was because I talked openly about wanting a family. But to assert that any woman should be asked that, I really rebelled against that. That upset me.
KELLY: What did you do?
ARDERN: Well, I pulled out my index finger and I pointed at him quite a lot (laughter), whilst really clearly asserting, you can ask me that question, but it is totally inappropriate and - you know, it was 2017 - to imply that any woman should have to answer that question with an employer.
KELLY: Jacinda Ardern's party won the election. She became prime minister, and she describes that 2017 TV exchange in her new memoir, "A Different Kind Of Power." It's one of many moments that let you glimpse what it was like to be a young woman running a country. When I sat down with Ardern yesterday, I also asked about a moment that took place a few weeks later in a bathroom.
You're sitting on the closed seat of the...
ARDERN: Toilet. Yeah.
KELLY: ...Toilet, and...
ARDERN: It's very glamorous.
KELLY: ...You're scared to death because you're waiting to learn two things.
ARDERN: Yeah.
KELLY: What were they?
ARDERN: Ah. So this was right in the middle of coalition negotiations. Our systems are like the German one. You don't always know on election night if you've won or not. So I was waiting to find out whether or not I was going to be become the prime minister of New Zealand. And in that moment, I was also waiting to find out if I was pregnant - quite a time (laughter).
KELLY: Yeah.
ARDERN: Yeah.
KELLY: Many of us who have been pregnant have battled morning sickness.
ARDERN: Yes.
KELLY: Few of us had to run a country while doing so. I loved your line about that it was salt and vinegar potato chips that...
ARDERN: Yes.
KELLY: ...Got you through. It was Cheetos for me.
ARDERN: (Laughter).
KELLY: I can never eat them again. I don't know if you can still face salt and vinegar crisps. I was also thinking, and you capture, there were very few people you could ask.
ARDERN: Yeah.
KELLY: You were only the second...
ARDERN: Yeah.
KELLY: ...Person to give birth while holding elected office...
ARDERN: Yeah.
KELLY: ...At the top of a government.
ARDERN: Yeah.
KELLY: Benazir Bhutto was the first.
ARDERN: Yes, that's right. There were...
KELLY: You asked Queen Elizabeth.
ARDERN: I did ask Queen Elizabeth. And, you know, really, she just - completely straight faced - she just said, well, you just get on with it. And there was just something about that. I thought, well, that's true. Because actually, when you break it down, in any role, any parent who is working and raising children, it's a matter of logistics. Every day is one foot in front of the other. It's getting on with it, and that turned out to be true. There was no magic to it.
KELLY: But you found - and I could so relate to this - that as your daughter grew, you found the juggle getting harder.
ARDERN: Yeah.
KELLY: You were weighing what you were missing...
ARDERN: Yeah.
KELLY: ...With her...
ARDERN: Yeah.
KELLY: ...And it weighed more heavily as she got...
ARDERN: Yeah.
KELLY: ...Older.
ARDERN: Yeah. And actually, I mean, I found that, you know, in a way, as difficult as I found it, breastfeeding was an excuse to have her with me, you know? But actually, as she got older, it was less practical. But I was also, at the same time, really clear that when I left, that was not a decision that was about it is too hard to be a mother and to do this role. There was no way that I was going to place the weight of that decision on her, nor was I going to send a message to any woman that you can't do both. You can. You can. Because actually, the mother guilt that I have now that I'm around more is just the same as what I had then. It doesn't go away. It's the price you pay of being a parent. And probably having that perspective has been really helpful, as well (laughter) - painful...
KELLY: Is the takeaway that...
ARDERN: ...But helpful.
KELLY: ...We're going to feel guilty no matter what you choices we...
ARDERN: Absolutely correct.
KELLY: So you might as well go do what you came to do.
ARDERN: We might as well flip it to think about what we want for our own children. And we want for them to have fulfilling lives as - if they choose - parents, and careers if they choose. Why don't we give ourselves that same grace?
KELLY: Before people start writing in, yelling at me, why are you asking her these questions? Would you ask the same thing of a 40-something male leader? Yes, I would.
ARDERN: Yeah.
KELLY: But I'm asking you specifically because you write so honestly and in such a raw way about what that struggle that I think every working parent has dealt with, to the point where you're getting a breast screening.
ARDERN: Yeah.
KELLY: They see something or feel...
ARDERN: Yeah.
KELLY: ...Something that...
ARDERN: Yeah.
KELLY: ...Raises questions you might have cancer. And describe what is going through your head.
ARDERN: Yeah, and I think someone asked me, why are you only talking about this at this point given the proximity to when you left office? And it was because, actually, it wasn't a determinative factor for me. But it was the first moment that I started thinking, what would I do in those circumstances whilst being in this job? And it invited the question of, oh, you know, maybe I would have to leave. And there was something, at that point, that I felt, you know, even allowing myself to think about departure. I could feel that I was thinking about it in a way that I hadn't before.
KELLY: But I guess I'm curious what had changed in your thinking that your reaction to a possible diagnosis of cancer wasn't, oh, my God, I might have cancer, but was, oh, my God, I might get to leave. I might get to be done.
ARDERN: Yeah.
KELLY: That's a really significant...
ARDERN: It is. It is.
KELLY: ...Shift.
ARDERN: And I knew that that wasn't a great way to see that piece of information, and that's what gave me pause to think about it. But, you know, as I was writing about it, I know exactly what was happening.
KELLY: Yeah.
ARDERN: I ended up in this role because that battle that I always had between whether or not I felt like I was equipped with all of the skills needed to be a leader, which I never believed myself to hold, and that sense of responsibility just happened to be, in my case, my sense of responsibility always won out. That was what brought me into the role. And it was only when I had a piece of information that allowed myself to get beyond my sense of responsibility that I started entertaining the idea of leaving. And it wasn't, in that moment, for a selfish reason, but rather, potentially, a medical one. So it just started a thought process that I hadn't allowed myself to have...
KELLY: Right.
ARDERN: ...Until then.
KELLY: It opened the door to that possibility.
ARDERN: It did.
KELLY: So how do you know when it's time to go? When you're in a job you worked really hard to get...
ARDERN: Yeah (laughter).
KELLY: ...And you love. You can tell you loved it.
ARDERN: And I did love it. And there's so much about it that I miss. But I, at the same time, don't regret the decision. You've always got to have a bit of extra, you know, in case there's crisis. And for us, we had a biosecurity incursion, a volcanic eruption, a horrific domestic terror attack and then the pandemic. I knew I needed more in reserve than what I had.
KELLY: You write about a question that your daughter - I think, she was 5 by this point...
ARDERN: Yes.
KELLY: ...Or around about. You two were walking home from daycare, and she asked why you had stepped down as prime minister.
ARDERN: Yeah. Yeah.
KELLY: How did you explain it to her, to a child?
ARDERN: Yeah, and it's a great question. You know, I gave her a version of what I kind of said at the time because it was, you know, my honest view, and it was, as I've already explained, I just did it in a more user-friendly way. And then she just said to me, but Mommy, we never give up. And suddenly, I was mortified at the idea that that might have been what she thought.
You know, for me, politics is an incredible place to be useful, to make change, to address injustice, but it's not the only place. And so for anyone who feels like politics is so representative about the direction of travel for community, for society, it is not the only place. I spent 15 years in politics, and the majority, I was in opposition. And every day I was motivated by what I saw amongst people in communities that was in spite sometimes of what they might have seen at a leadership level. So I guess I'd say to anyone the same thing I said to her - oh, I'm never giving up.
KELLY: Jacinda Ardern was prime minister of New Zealand from 2017 to 2023. Her memoir is "A Different Kind Of Power." Tomorrow, part two of our conversation about convincing a country to change its gun laws. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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