SCOTT SIMON, HOST:
Two years on, an overwhelming majority of Israelis say they want an end to the war in Gaza to release the hostages, and that might become a reality soon. Yesterday, Hamas said it accepts President Trump's ceasefire plan and will release all remaining hostages, living and dead, after it negotiates some of the conditions. But how has the war in Gaza changed the way Israelis view themselves? Shira Efron is distinguished Israel policy chair and senior fellow at RAND and joins us now from Tel Aviv. Thanks for being with us.
SHIRA EFRON: Thank you for having me.
SIMON: Can we go back to October 6 two years ago, the day before the Hamas-led attacks on Israel? What was it like to be an Israeli?
EFRON: I think on October 6, it felt anything was possible. On the personal level, we had just returned, my family and I, from a visit to Sinai in Egypt - crossing the border, speaking Arabic to our neighbors, you know, something that I really can't imagine us doing today. I remember an expert conversation exactly on October 6, speaking about the lessons from the Yom Kippur War in 1973. And all the security analysts said, this - something like this can never happen to us again. We will never face a strategic surprise like Yom Kippur. And then, of course, we woke up at 6:29 a.m. on October 7, and the world couldn't have been more different.
SIMON: So what does it feel like to be in Israel now?
EFRON: It's difficult. For many Israelis, October 7 is not over yet. Every day, there are more stories of what happened that day. You hear from survivors. More witnesses are coming out with stories. Obviously, Israelis that have gained the support of much of the international community early on are now facing unprecedented levels of isolation, with divestments and boycotts, formal and informal. And so on the one hand, Israel's security environment changed remarkably since October 7 because in the last two years, Israel has taken actions that have changed fundamentally its borders, with remarkable military achievements. But those have not been translated into strategic, diplomatic victories. And of course, with the war in Gaza that, according to most Israelis, was very legitimate on October 7, has no legitimacy today, and it has no legitimacy around the world. And even Israelis don't want the war to continue.
SIMON: Prime Minister Netanyahu has been on trial for corruption. And of course, there have been huge demonstrations calling for him to reach a deal with Hamas for the release of all the remaining Israeli hostages. What's the state of his leadership now?
EFRON: What we are seeing in every polling is that the Israeli public does not support neither the government's policies nor the government itself. So there is really a conundrum here because the prime minister and his coalition that - are both, you know, advancing the continuation of the war. But it's not clear to the Israeli public and to others in - around the world that this is done only because of pure national security interests and not personal political interest of staying in power, knowing pretty well that if we go to elections, this current coalition has a very low chance of being reelected.
SIMON: I mean, casting back to 1948 and the founding of Israel, Israel liked to say that it aspired to be a light among nations. And now we have a situation where Israel's military campaign in Gaza is being criticized around the world, including by traditional allies. How does this affect Israel's view of itself?
EFRON: Think it does two things. Israelis believe that they're held to an entirely different standard from other countries in the world. And while I can take this view and be sympathetic to Israel's frustration, clearly, there is a willful blindness of Israelis, awful images from Gaza that - believe it or not, Israelis don't see in the news the images that the rest of the world sees from Gaza. They don't know what is happening in their name. But after two years, there's a question to be asked - in the name of what, and to what end? Now, if Israel has an objective that, I think Hamas, a terrorist, vicious, cruel, barbaric organization, should not be the de facto government of the Gaza Strip - you want to dismantle Hamas and change the governance in Gaza to one that doesn't pose a threat to Israel - that's fine. But limits on humanitarian aid, the lack of dignity for the Palestinian people - how is this going to help Israel's security in the long run?
SIMON: You wrote recently in The New York Times - I'm going to quote you - Israelis must look beyond their own prism of pain and trauma, recognize the harsh reality in Gaza. Then it must act. Act how? Do what?
EFRON: Israelis can demand the increase of the humanitarian aid. The fact is that humanitarian assistance in Israel has been politicized to the extent that there are barely any Israelis who support it, including from the opposition. But those questions of the future of Gaza, the future of the Palestinian people, not turning, you know, this blind spot that we have to Palestinian nationalism - those questions are not going to go away.
SIMON: Shira Efron is distinguished Israel policy chair and senior fellow at Rand. Thank you for being with us.
EFRON: Thank you.
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