MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
Former President Donald Trump and Vice President Kamala Harris met face-to-face for the first time last night in their first, and possibly only, presidential debate. Trump and Harris presented two distinctly different visions of America during the 90-minute event. The former president talked about a nation in decline and revisited many of his past grievances. The vice president said she saw a country that wants to move beyond division and promised to provide more opportunities for Americans.
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DONALD TRUMP: We're being laughed at all over the world. All over the world, they laugh. I know the leaders very well. They're coming to see me. They call me. We're laughed at all over the world. They don't understand what happened to us as a nation.
VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS: What I do offer is a new generation of leadership for our country - one who believes in what is possible, one who brings a sense of optimism.
MARTIN: The vice president also seemed to make an effort to get under Trump's skin. We have two political strategists here to give their take on the night. Ron Bonjean is a Republican strategist, and Maria Cardona is a Democratic strategist and CNN commentator. Good morning to you both. Thank you both so much for getting up early after a late night.
MARIA CARDONA: Good morning. Thanks for having us.
RON BONJEAN: Good morning.
MARTIN: So I don't know how you feel about this idea of a winner or loser, 'cause I'm not sure regular voters look at it that way. But you two are the professionals. So what do you think? Was there a winner? Ron, you want to go first?
BONJEAN: Yeah. I would say that Harris clearly won the debate. She was able to get under Trump's skin with her well-prepared attacks and completely put Trump on defense. However, I didn't think there were any knockout blows, and the jury is still out on whether she overwhelmingly convinced independent voters to finally make up their minds on who they're going to vote for.
MARTIN: Maria, what about you?
CARDONA: I absolutely agree. I think that Kamala Harris won the debate. I do think that she was able to convince independent voters that she is the one with the vision that actually wants to bring the country together, that she is the one that wants to turn the page for something that is more optimistic, for something that's more hopeful. But I agree with Ron that she has to continue to do that from here on out in order to close the deal between now and November, or between now and when people start to vote, 'cause let's remember, early voting starts here pretty quickly.
MARTIN: So, Maria, let me go to you first on this next one. Did Americans learn anything new about the candidates from last night's debate?
CARDONA: I think they did. For Kamala Harris, she was able to not just lay out her vision in terms of where she wants to take the country generally. She was able to talk about specifics. She talked about what she wants to do for more affordable housing. She talked about a child tax credit for families who want to have children. She talked about how she wants to expand health care. She talked about how she wants to help Americans expand the middle class and help them live better lives, help them make ends meet, help them not just get by, but get ahead.
MARTIN: OK, so she learned about - so she made a point of expressing her policies that people may not have heard. Ron, did you think people learned anything new?
BONJEAN: Yeah. No, I think that people are very - people know President Trump. This was a chance for people to learn a little bit more about Kamala Harris. And while she unveiled these - you know, these ideas, while she talked about these ideas, I felt like Trump's closing should have been his opening. Trump said, if Harris had all these good ideas for helping average Americans, why hasn't she been able to implement them during the last 3 1/2 years?
MARTIN: So to that end to that end, he called her out for what he said was her own lack of policy. So let me just play that clip, if you don't mind. Here we go.
BONJEAN: Sure.
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TRUMP: She doesn't have a plan. She copied Biden's plan, and it's, like, four sentences - like, run, Spot, run - four sentences that are just, oh, we'll try and lower taxes. She doesn't have a plan. Take a look at her plan. She doesn't have a plan.
MARTIN: So, Ron, do you think that was effective?
BONJEAN: I thought it was effective by tying - for Trump to continue to tie Harris to Biden. I thought that was useful. Harris did push back strongly on it. And I did think that reminding people that she's the current vice president, and she could have made these changes during this time right now that she's in office, was good. But he should have used that as his opening and his foundation and kept driving that home, and I think it was a real lost opportunity.
MARTIN: So, Maria, you know, the feeling was that Harris had a lot at stake because, as Ron just said, Trump is the known quantity here. And a lot of voters have been telling us, in one way or another, that they don't think they know as much about her. So as you just said, she had to establish herself, and as you just pointed out, she pointed out a lot of her policy proposals. But she also seemed to make a point of poking at things that Trump is said to be thin-skinned about, like being perceived as a loser. Like, here, let me play that.
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HARRIS: Donald Trump was fired by 81 million people, so let's be clear about that. And clearly, he is having a very difficult time processing that.
MARTIN: Was that effective, in your view?
CARDONA: I think it was incredibly effective because while everyone says that last night was Kamala Harris' opportunity and her challenge to make herself better known among so many independent voters, it was also Donald Trump's challenge to demonstrate that he is not so thin-skinned, that he is not so easily baited, that he is not this bully from the playground. And he proved exactly the opposite - that he was all those things.
And I think Americans are looking elsewhere for a leader - and I think this was something that Kamala Harris did brilliantly - that looks at this country and says, the measure of a leader is how we lift people up, not how we try to knock them down. And Donald Trump last night proved that the most important thing for him is his ego, how he is perceived, and if people do not perceive him that way, then he is going to seek to knock them down. And I think that was really, really detrimental for him.
MARTIN: Ron, what do you think? I mean, 'cause he clearly did get annoyed about things like - I mean, he didn't answer for many minutes the immigration question, which is one of his signature issues, something he clearly feels strongly about and always has since his 2016 campaign. But then he went on this whole long thing about crowd sizes and so forth. I mean, Ron, what's your take on that?
BONJEAN: Yeah. No, I think that Harris' debate strategy - she really practiced and prepared for this. It was very clear that Trump kind of winged it, and went in - it felt like he was - kind of went in unprepared. I mean, she attacked him. She baited him on the fact that his crowd sizes are small, that the military doesn't respect him and that world leaders mock him. And he took it every single time, instead of taking the opportunity to push back on her to say, you're the current vice president of the United States; things aren't going well here in America; I'm here to change all that. He had a lot of opportunities to do that. This is not hard, and he made it really hard for himself. And it's really inexplicable and a real lost opportunity for the former president.
MARTIN: Before we let each of you go - second debate, yes or no? What do you think, Ron? Second debate, yes or no?
BONJEAN: I find it highly unlikely.
MARTIN: Because?
BONJEAN: Because Harris - well, actually, you know what? There could be another one because Trump can't let somebody win. However, they blame the ABC debate and the moderators.
MARTIN: Maria, what about you? Second debate, yes or no?
CARDONA: I think there might be. I think it's smart that the Kamala Harris campaign asked for one. I don't think there will be.
MARTIN: Because?
CARDONA: Because I don't think that Donald Trump wants to go through that again. I don't think his team wants to go through that again.
MARTIN: All right. That is Democratic strategist and CNN commentator Maria Cardona and Republican strategist Ron Bonjean. Thank you both so much for joining us.
CARDONA: Thank you.
BONJEAN: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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