AILSA CHANG, HOST:
An emergency ruling from the Supreme Court last week allowed the Trump administration to continue enacting its ban on transgender military service members. While the legal challenge to this policy plays out in a federal appeals court, the U.S. military is offering voluntary separation to trans troops, and it will start involuntary separation after that. Over the years, we have spoken with Col. Bree Fram of the U.S. Space Force. She is one of the highest-ranking transgender service members in the armed forces, and she joins us now. It's good to speak with you again, Col. Fram.
BREE FRAM: Always good to talk with you, Ailsa. I just wish we had better things to talk about.
CHANG: I know. OK, well, I just want to make clear you are still active duty as of now, correct?
FRAM: That's true. And I'm speaking with you today in my personal capacity, though, and my views are not necessarily reflective of the Department of Defense.
CHANG: Understood. OK, so you have had about a week, Col. Fram, to process this Supreme Court ruling. What has been going through your mind?
FRAM: Well, I was devastated and heartbroken by the decision because it doesn't take into account the real harm that is occurring right now, not just to individual transgender service members but also to this nation and to our national defense now and far into the future. Because lives are being upended, and even if the court cases continue to play out, we are going to lose thousands of highly trained, highly capable, skilled individuals that are serving their nation and doing everything that is being asked of them right now here at home and deployed all around the world.
CHANG: What about you, Col. Fram? The Trump administration has given active-duty trans service members until early next month - right? - to leave voluntarily? Have you reached a personal decision about what you will do? What can you tell us?
FRAM: Well, one thing I want to make clear is this is not a choice. No one is going to voluntarily choose to leave. We have been told that we are not wanted. And if this policy was not here, no one would be saying, I'm out. But right now, we're in the space where people have to make the best decision for them and for their families, and that includes me. How do I engage with this? 'Cause I don't want to take the uniform off. When I was promoted to colonel several years ago, I felt like it was closer to the beginning than the end because there were so many amazing adventures ahead and quite an opportunity to train and develop the next generation. So I and thousands of others have to look at this and say, what works for me? Because if we don't take what is being offered in front of us right now, what are the additional adverse consequences that may come with the involuntary phase?
CHANG: Right. So to repeat some of your words, like, how will you stay engaged if you do, indeed, have to take the uniform off?
FRAM: Ailsa, that's the million-dollar question. What I know is that I've got 22-plus years of service to this nation behind me. And if I have to take the uniform off, I don't expect that service to end. I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution, and we do not swear oaths just to live up to them when it's easy. I absolutely expect, later on, to continue to live up to that oath and fight for what I believe is right in this nation and make that better tomorrow that we all believe in as Americans.
CHANG: Well, while the Supreme Court ruling allows this ban on transgender troops to be enforced, legal challenges are proceeding in lower court. How hopeful are you that those courts, maybe even the Supreme Court eventually, will rule in favor of trans service members?
FRAM: Well, I'm hopeful for several reasons. One, in the rulings we have already seen from the district courts that really pointed to our example of service as exhibit A for why the government's arguments basically don't have a leg to stand on, and the experiences of not only the plaintiffs in the cases but the thousands of service members that are meeting or exceeding standards.
CHANG: Well, in the 30 seconds we have left, I just want to say, you know, the military's policy on trans service members has changed quite often - right? - from President Obama to the first Trump term to Biden, now to the second Trump term. Does being in flux just feel kind of familiar to you, or does this moment feel somewhat different?
FRAM: This has been an absolute roller coaster, and the emotional toll has been intense. But through it all, we have absolutely accomplished the mission, and that's what makes me so proud of transgender service members.
CHANG: Col. Bree Fram of the U.S. Space Force, thank you very much for joining us again.
FRAM: Thank you for having me. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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